Discussion:
Pasteurized beer
(too old to reply)
gnohmon
2005-09-01 01:42:56 UTC
Permalink
On the wordy label of Ommegang's "Hennepin", you can read that the beer
is not pasteurized, and will improve in quality if properly stored for
as long as 5 years. Budweiser, on the contrary, makes the amazing claim
that its pasteurized beer begins to decline in quality the moment it
leaves the brewery (I say "amazing" because surely its quality is
already minimal when it is at its freshest.)

However, I wish to ask a few questions of the cognoscenti here.

Do all pasteurized beers say "pasteurized" on the label?

That magnificent head, the foam that can be eaten with knife and fork,
can it be produced by pasteurized beer, or is its presence a proof on
non-p?

Seems to me that when I drink unpasteurized beer after a while without,
I get gas. I assume that this is because the yeast is settling into my
gut and providing me with healthful B vitamins. Right? If so, can
pasteurized beer make any meaningful contribution to your B-vitamins?

Yeungling's Lord Chesterfield Ale is not pasteurized, right?

Are any good beers pasteurized?
Steve Jackson
2005-09-03 05:53:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by gnohmon
On the wordy label of Ommegang's "Hennepin", you can read that the beer
is not pasteurized, and will improve in quality if properly stored for
as long as 5 years. Budweiser, on the contrary, makes the amazing claim
that its pasteurized beer begins to decline in quality the moment it
leaves the brewery (I say "amazing" because surely its quality is
already minimal when it is at its freshest.)
A-B are correct. The condition of pasteurized beer does begin to decline as
soon as it's packaged.

And, whether you like what they produce or not, Bud does not have minimal
quality. It has outstanding quality most craft brewers cannot achieve in
their wildest wet dreams - if you define quality as brewing a consistent
product that is free from process flaws in brewing, fermentation and
packaging. I may prefer most every other beer to Bud, but I've had enough
foaming Prima Pils and stale Hop Devils (like the one I just drank tonight,
even though my local store just got a new delivery) to know that craft
breweries still have a lot to learn on the quality front.
Post by gnohmon
However, I wish to ask a few questions of the cognoscenti here.
Do all pasteurized beers say "pasteurized" on the label?
No.
Post by gnohmon
That magnificent head, the foam that can be eaten with knife and fork,
can it be produced by pasteurized beer, or is its presence a proof on
non-p?
Yes.

No.

(Note, both answers are contingent upon the beer being fresh, and having the
right sort of ingredients to produce that sort of head in the first place -
plus clean glassware that doesn't kill a head.)
Post by gnohmon
Seems to me that when I drink unpasteurized beer after a while without,
I get gas. I assume that this is because the yeast is settling into my
gut and providing me with healthful B vitamins. Right?
No. If that were the case, your multivitamin would give you gas. It gives
you gas because the yeast are generating gas. And it has to go somewhere.
Post by gnohmon
If so, can
pasteurized beer make any meaningful contribution to your B-vitamins?
No. I really doubt unpasteurized beer makes any "meaningful" contribution to
your B-vitamin intake, either. It contributes some, sure. But not a
tremendous amount.
Post by gnohmon
Yeungling's Lord Chesterfield Ale is not pasteurized, right?
I'm a West Coaster. Ya gots me.
Post by gnohmon
Are any good beers pasteurized?
I'm sure there are, although in general I'd say bottle-conditioned beers
tend to hold up longer.

Meanwhile, if you flip around the question you can see that pasteurization
(or lack thereof) doesn't directly correlate to taste: all keg beer sold in
teh States is non-pasteurized. And yet, somehow Bud doesn't magically become
a flavorful beer with a head that'll last all night (not that I think head
formation is any sign of whether I want to drink a beer or not).

-Steve
j***@lycosmonaut.com
2005-09-03 12:13:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Jackson
I've had enough
foaming Prima Pils and stale Hop Devils (like the one I just drank tonight,
even though my local store just got a new delivery) to know that craft
breweries still have a lot to learn on the quality front.
Prima and Hop Devil are two of my regular beers AND have a very clear
and easy-to-find "Enjoy By" date (i.e., you can still drink it after
that, you just won't "enjoy" it, I guess <g>) on the label (as well as
on the case shell). At least the bottles I buy in neighboring NJ do
(and I always buy the beer with at least 3 months to go- my last case of
PP, bought two weeks ago, said "Dec 01 '05"- and I'm guessing Victory
gives their beers only 6 months unlike the Europeans who give it a
year). I never get foaming Prima or stale Hop Devil.

Do the bottles that make it the West Coast have the code? I have little
respect for brewers who- I guess at the request of distant distributors-
conveniently leave off the date code. It's why I don't buy a lot of West
Coast beers, except when the first hit the area. It's why I don't buy
as much DogfishHead as I like since their 60 Minute and 90 Minute lose a
LOT as they sit on the shelf and I can't find a code anywhere.
Post by Steve Jackson
Post by gnohmon
Yeungling's Lord Chesterfield Ale is not pasteurized, right?
I'm a West Coaster. Ya gots me.
Yeungling, like most "old line"* breweries, pasteurizes all it's bottled
and canned beer. (*Coors and "real draft" beers, which are heavily
filtered, being the exception- one that doesn't appreciably improve
them, since they weren't much to begin with...).

Back before it's mass regional popularity, the Yeungling Brewery tour
was a very casual affair. My first was just my girl friend and I being
taken around by a secretary. As we walked through the bottling line,
the Yuengling guide offered me a cold Yuengling beer in a 16 ounce
deposit bottle right off the line BEFORE it went into the pasteurizer.
Was one of the best American light lagers I ever had- BUT I won't say it
was due to the lack of pasteurization as it was the environment and
ability to "steal" one off the line and walk around drinking it (at 10
am) for the rest of the tour. When we got back to the office, there was
a grey-haired guy, still in his overcoat, shell glass of beer in his
hand. "Oh," said the secretary, "here's Dick (Yeungling) now." We
talked a bit about the lack of Yuengling in NJ (late 70's), etc. Lemme
guess- that doesn't happen on a A-B tour.
Steve Jackson
2005-09-07 00:14:00 UTC
Permalink
Prima and Hop Devil are two of my regular beers AND have a very clear and
easy-to-find "Enjoy By" date (i.e., you can still drink it after that, you
just won't "enjoy" it, I guess <g>) on the label (as well as on the case
shell). At least the bottles I buy in neighboring NJ do (and I always buy
the beer with at least 3 months to go- my last case of PP, bought two
weeks ago, said "Dec 01 '05"- and I'm guessing Victory gives their beers
only 6 months unlike the Europeans who give it a year). I never get
foaming Prima or stale Hop Devil.
I used to give people crap for complaining about Victory's bottling issues,
but I've had far too many cases of both of these syndromes over the last
year or so - plus some cases a few years ago, when I picked up bottles in PA
during a roadtrip - to dismiss them out of hand. (BTW, the current stale Hop
Devil has a best by date of November something 2005.)

I don't mean to pick on Victory. I just cited them as a well-regarded
brewery (rightly so) who has quality issues of their own, depending on what
measures of quality one wants to point to. And there are plenty of other
craft breweries who have far worse problems with things like consistency,
bottling, etc.
Do the bottles that make it the West Coast have the code?
Yep. At least the recent ones do.

-Steve
MikeMcG
2005-09-09 09:13:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Jackson
Prima and Hop Devil are two of my regular beers AND have a very clear and
easy-to-find "Enjoy By" date (i.e., you can still drink it after that, you
just won't "enjoy" it, I guess <g>) on the label (as well as on the case
shell). At least the bottles I buy in neighboring NJ do (and I always buy
the beer with at least 3 months to go- my last case of PP, bought two
weeks ago, said "Dec 01 '05"- and I'm guessing Victory gives their beers
only 6 months unlike the Europeans who give it a year). I never get
foaming Prima or stale Hop Devil.
I used to give people crap for complaining about Victory's bottling issues,
but I've had far too many cases of both of these syndromes over the last
year or so - plus some cases a few years ago, when I picked up bottles in PA
during a roadtrip - to dismiss them out of hand. (BTW, the current stale Hop
Devil has a best by date of November something 2005.)
I don't mean to pick on Victory. I just cited them as a well-regarded
brewery (rightly so) who has quality issues of their own, depending on what
measures of quality one wants to point to. And there are plenty of other
craft breweries who have far worse problems with things like consistency,
bottling, etc.
Do the bottles that make it the West Coast have the code?
Yep. At least the recent ones do.
From what I've heard & read Victory take quality & freshness extremely
seriously (using hi-tech equipment to reduce oxidation, etc). I thought
that they were (pretty successfully) trying to approach AB's levels of
control over the brewing & packaging processes, but with a
craft-brewers eye/tastebud for brewing a worthwhile beer in the first
place.

I believe what you say, but it's odd & sad to hear, given the money &
effort they have put towards avoiding these problems.

Personally, so far I've never met a Victory I didn't like - had the keg
cask & bottle HopDevil, & I think bottled prima in PA a few years back
& GoldenMonkey & HopDevil again in bottle, over here (UK) last year.

Have you tried a wee complaint email?
cheers
Mike McG
Steve Jackson
2005-09-11 22:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Jackson
From what I've heard & read Victory take quality & freshness extremely
seriously (using hi-tech equipment to reduce oxidation, etc). I thought
that they were (pretty successfully) trying to approach AB's levels of
control over the brewing & packaging processes, but with a
craft-brewers eye/tastebud for brewing a worthwhile beer in the first
place.
I hadn't heard that they were at that level, and frankly I'd be surprised if
that were the case. Justified or not, there have been rumblings about
Victory's bottling quality issues for years. I used to dismiss it. But in
the last year or so, it's become damn tough to find Victory bottles out here
in California that don't have some sort of flaw. That could mean poor
handling by distributors (it's not at the retailer level, because I've had
this from multiple retailers who take good care of their beer), or problems
in transport. But I'm not positive that's the case, when you're getting
stale or gushy beer three months before its six-month expiry date. (I
believe Victory only date on a six month scale, but I'm not positive.)
Post by Steve Jackson
I believe what you say, but it's odd & sad to hear, given the money &
effort they have put towards avoiding these problems.
It is surprising, yes, because I do know they've invested a lot in the
bottling side of things in recent years. But it appears they still have work
to go (although they do seem to have made huge strides witht he corked
bottles after the problem with the first run of extrememly gushy - and maybe
even exploding, I don't recall for sure, but I seem to recall hearing of
cases - V10; the corked V12 has held up nicely, and Golden Monkey seems to
as well).
Post by Steve Jackson
Personally, so far I've never met a Victory I didn't like - had the keg
cask & bottle HopDevil, & I think bottled prima in PA a few years back
& GoldenMonkey & HopDevil again in bottle, over here (UK) last year.
Have you tried a wee complaint email?
Eh, I suppose I should. I've met Bill and Jim, and they're nice guys, and I
hate to sound like a whiner, but I know they'd also want to know about
issues.

-Steve
Lew Bryson
2005-09-07 17:01:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Steve Jackson
Post by gnohmon
Yeungling's Lord Chesterfield Ale is not pasteurized, right?
I'm a West Coaster. Ya gots me.
Yeah, all of Yuengling's bottled/canned beers are pasteurized.
Post by Steve Jackson
Post by gnohmon
Are any good beers pasteurized?
I'm sure there are, although in general I'd say bottle-conditioned beers
tend to hold up longer.
Meanwhile, if you flip around the question you can see that pasteurization
(or lack thereof) doesn't directly correlate to taste: all keg beer sold
in teh States is non-pasteurized. And yet, somehow Bud doesn't magically
become a flavorful beer with a head that'll last all night (not that I
think head formation is any sign of whether I want to drink a beer or
not).
Not all keg beer sold in the States in non-pasteurized. There are a few
micros that do flash-pasteurization of their draft beer for their own
reasons, and don't talk much about it...for their own reasons.
--
Lew Bryson

God Bless America.
"They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither Liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
Bill Becker
2005-09-07 22:02:49 UTC
Permalink
Hey Lew,

That was another great The Buzz you wrote in the latest Occasional Pint that
I got. I guess I better stay away from the taps at the local Old Chicago or
I'll never go there. lol

Take care.
Post by Lew Bryson
Post by Steve Jackson
Post by gnohmon
Yeungling's Lord Chesterfield Ale is not pasteurized, right?
I'm a West Coaster. Ya gots me.
Yeah, all of Yuengling's bottled/canned beers are pasteurized.
Post by Steve Jackson
Post by gnohmon
Are any good beers pasteurized?
I'm sure there are, although in general I'd say bottle-conditioned beers
tend to hold up longer.
Meanwhile, if you flip around the question you can see that
pasteurization (or lack thereof) doesn't directly correlate to taste: all
keg beer sold in teh States is non-pasteurized. And yet, somehow Bud
doesn't magically become a flavorful beer with a head that'll last all
night (not that I think head formation is any sign of whether I want to
drink a beer or not).
Not all keg beer sold in the States in non-pasteurized. There are a few
micros that do flash-pasteurization of their draft beer for their own
reasons, and don't talk much about it...for their own reasons.
--
Lew Bryson
God Bless America.
"They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, 1759.
Lew Bryson
2005-09-08 03:57:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Becker
Hey Lew,
That was another great The Buzz you wrote in the latest Occasional Pint
that I got. I guess I better stay away from the taps at the local Old
Chicago or I'll never go there. lol
Gotta be good or it just isn't worth it, Bill! Thanks!
--
Lew Bryson

"As for talking shit in this NG, Lew, you're the undisputed king, and
that's no SHITE." -- Bob Skilnik, 1/31/02

www.lewbryson.com
Steve Jackson
2005-09-08 05:00:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lew Bryson
Not all keg beer sold in the States in non-pasteurized. There are a few
micros that do flash-pasteurization of their draft beer for their own
reasons, and don't talk much about it...for their own reasons.
Well, damn. Learn something new every day, etc.

Care to talk about the breweries that don't talk much about it?

-Steve
Lew Bryson
2005-09-09 13:50:02 UTC
Permalink
"Steve Jackson" <***@verizon.net.no.spam> wrote in message
news:YzPTe.106$%
Post by Steve Jackson
Post by Lew Bryson
Not all keg beer sold in the States in non-pasteurized. There are a few
micros that do flash-pasteurization of their draft beer for their own
reasons, and don't talk much about it...for their own reasons.
Well, damn. Learn something new every day, etc.
Care to talk about the breweries that don't talk much about it?
Only one I remember is Anchor; one of the larger midwest micros, but I can't
remember which one...Summit? Maybe? Sorry, it was over five years ago. I
talked to a guy who sold flash-pasteurization systems, and he was a bloody
fanatic about it, essentially saying that American brewers were insane to
ship unpasteurized beer. I've talked to a former Paulaner brewer who said
the brewery staff does regular blind taste tests of unpasteurized and
flash-pasteurized Paulaner, and pretty much always cannot tell the
difference.
--
Lew Bryson

"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
www.lewbryson.com
Joel
2005-09-09 15:08:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lew Bryson
I've talked to a former Paulaner brewer who said
the brewery staff does regular blind taste tests of unpasteurized and
flash-pasteurized Paulaner, and pretty much always cannot tell the
difference.
Whatever they're doing, it ain't workin'. I've had sour
Paulaner Maerzen (from bottles).
--
Joel Plutchak "It must be legal, the police are here taking
plutchak at [...] stuff, too." - A New Orleans looter, 30-Aug-2005
Lew Bryson
2005-09-10 01:34:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joel
Post by Lew Bryson
I've talked to a former Paulaner brewer who said
the brewery staff does regular blind taste tests of unpasteurized and
flash-pasteurized Paulaner, and pretty much always cannot tell the
difference.
Whatever they're doing, it ain't workin'. I've had sour
Paulaner Maerzen (from bottles).
Haven't had any Paulaner bottles lately, but did have a few drafts last
week, all good. Which proves...
--
Lew Bryson

"GOOD or SHITE?" -- Michael Jackson, "Thriller", 1982
www.lewbryson.com
Dan
2005-09-03 18:55:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by gnohmon
On the wordy label of Ommegang's "Hennepin", you can read that the beer
is not pasteurized, and will improve in quality if properly stored for
as long as 5 years. Budweiser, on the contrary, makes the amazing claim
that its pasteurized beer begins to decline in quality the moment it
leaves the brewery (I say "amazing" because surely its quality is
already minimal when it is at its freshest.)
However, I wish to ask a few questions of the cognoscenti here.
Do all pasteurized beers say "pasteurized" on the label?
That magnificent head, the foam that can be eaten with knife and fork,
can it be produced by pasteurized beer, or is its presence a proof on
non-p?
Seems to me that when I drink unpasteurized beer after a while without,
I get gas. I assume that this is because the yeast is settling into my
gut and providing me with healthful B vitamins. Right? If so, can
pasteurized beer make any meaningful contribution to your B-vitamins?
Yeungling's Lord Chesterfield Ale is not pasteurized, right?
Are any good beers pasteurized?
Pasteurizing hurts the taste of any product in my opinion. Here is how
Pabst used to do it: cans pasteurized the most, six pack bottles a
little less, case bottles just a tad, kegs not at all.

I happen to know of a micro that went to flash pasteurizing their
bottles. I don't drink it anymore as I think the taste took a hit.
Bill Davidsen
2005-09-12 21:51:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by gnohmon
On the wordy label of Ommegang's "Hennepin", you can read that the beer
is not pasteurized, and will improve in quality if properly stored for
as long as 5 years. Budweiser, on the contrary, makes the amazing claim
that its pasteurized beer begins to decline in quality the moment it
leaves the brewery (I say "amazing" because surely its quality is
already minimal when it is at its freshest.)
I think you confuse quality and taste. A-B has some of the best quality
control in the brewing industry, and as a result turn out a completly
consistent product. I find that the taste is not pleasing, but not at
all the same thing. The so-called "born on date" should really be called
the "died on date," because that's when the yeast died and the taste
started going downhill.

The English term "Real Beer" (or "Real Ale") usually means bottle or
cask conditioned, with the fermentation which produces the carbonation
happening in the container used to deliver the product to the end user.

If the yeast is killed by pasteurization or removed by filtration then
the carbonation is done by injection of CO2.

From the old Schultz and Dooley commercials:
Brew me no brew with artificial bubbles
thoses carbonated beers of today
'cause Utica Club will still take the trouble
to make beer the natural way

I have to say that UC didn't ever impress me with having better flavor,
but I approve the practice completely. Feel free to offer contrasting
opions on that.
--
-bill davidsen (***@tmr.com)
"The secret to procrastination is to put things off until the
last possible moment - but no longer" -me
http://blogs.tmr.com/beer
j***@lycosmonaut.com
2005-09-12 22:39:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill Davidsen
If the yeast is killed by pasteurization or removed by filtration then
the carbonation is done by injection of CO2.
In the large US breweries, beer is pasteurized after the fully
carbonated beer in sealed inside the bottle or can. The fact that a
bottled/canned beer is pasteurized doesn't imply artificial carbonation.
Post by Bill Davidsen
Brew me no brew with artificial bubbles
thoses carbonated beers of today
'cause Utica Club will still take the trouble
to make beer the natural way
Utica Club was referred to the fact that their beer was naturally
carbonated ("Krausened"), something a number of large US brewers
(Schaefer, Heileman, etc.) have used as a selling point and it's a safe
guess that the vast majority of those beers, when canned or bottled,
were pastuerized as well (save for their "real draft" brews, which were
filtered). Most of those breweries probably "adjusted" the carbonation
at times with an extra injection of CO2 when needed. Even those brewers
who artificially carbonate their beers get the CO2 for free, since it's
a by-product of the fermentation process- easier to collect and save it,
that buy it.
gnohmon
2005-09-13 02:51:53 UTC
Permalink
So many excellent and informative answers!

Thanks to all.

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